S4E4: Health Psychology Fosters Wellness for the Body and Mind

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[00:00:04] Jamila Gaskins: This is The Seed Field Podcast, the show where Antiochians share their knowledge, tell their stories and come together to win victories for humanity. I’m your guest host for today’s episode Jamila Gaskins, and we are joined by Lynn Dhanak, a faculty member in psychology at Antioch Seattle. Today’s conversation will explore health psychology from the basic concepts to practical applications and community care.

Engaging in this conversation is important on the scale of society, but it’s also exciting for me personally. Let me introduce myself a little bit. Today I work at Antioch as a marketing account manager, and my master’s degree is from the Urban Sustainability Program at Antioch Los Angeles. My teachers in that program taught us about the structures of environmental, economic, and social justice and showed us the effects of inequity on people’s lived experiences.

As I studied for my degree, the more I learned, the more I knew we need to also connect our urban systems and structures to the mental health and care of people and communities. Community health is so important. Personal disclosure. I’m a sexual assault survivor and I was also a survivor advocate. During my shifts, if called, I would go into hospitals and be with people. I stocked a supply bag with clothing, toiletries, and crossword puzzles.

The crosswords offered survivors in the ER a mental escape between doctors and nurses, police and family. Sitting with and helping these survivors of physical and mental trauma was a profound experience, and they gave me insight into an aspect of community health that is often hidden in our society. Another thing I’m excited to talk to Lynn about is her work as part of a collective that organized and built a domestic violence shelter called Women Care Shelter in Bellingham, Washington.

There’s so much to learn about health psychology and how we can actually create centers of health and wellness. It’s so important to work towards creating institutions and structures geared toward wellbeing and serving the whole person and community that are based on people’s lived experiences. That’s why I’m thrilled to have in the studio with me, Lynn Dhanak. Lynn has been an educator for almost 20 years.

She’s based in Seattle where she is teaching faculty. She’s the faculty coordinator for the BA Health Counseling and Psychology program. She also teaches in the psychology doctorate programs. Beyond Antioch, Lynn has interned in a hospital and worked in a community mental health center in private practice and as a consultant as a professor and as a research scientist. Lynn, welcome to The Seed Field Podcast.

[00:03:06] Lynn Dhanak: Thanks, Jamila. It’s great to be here.

[00:03:09] Jamila: I’m excited for this conversation. As we start, especially because our listeners can’t see us and guess our backgrounds from our appearances, I want to make sure we disclose the positions that we’re coming to this conversation from. I’m a college-educated Black, queer, able-bodied person. Lynn, would you mind as much as you’re comfortable, letting our listeners know about your own position?

[00:03:34] Lynn: I’m also college educated. I’m older, I’m 65. I am half East Indian and I’m cis-gendered and I’m queer bi.

[00:03:45] Jamila: Nice. I like that. As we start this conversation, I want to make sure we define a few terms to make sure we have a common understanding of what we mean by certain terminology. The undergraduate concentration that you direct is called Health Counseling and Psychology. What do you mean by, or what is the field of health psychology?

[00:04:06] Lynn: Well, health psychology, I, of course, find it fascinating. It’s a field that really talks about the interconnections, the connections back and forth between our bodies and our minds. It’s about the effects of a psychology, our psychological experiences on our health, and the effects of our bodily experiences on our psychology.

It’s one of those interesting fields that has kind of come out of, I would say, the wellness awareness, and it really is a field that is based on two things I think are really important, the recognition of individual choice in our bodies, how we use our bodies, what we put into our bodies, what we do with our bodies, and then also looking at helping people understand the effects of those choices long term.

Now some are not choices. Some are adverse circumstances that have happened to us that I’ll talk about more. Experiences like racism, experiences like adverse childhood experiences, which someone did not choose, which have tremendous impact on wellness in the body long term, but as much as we can change and thrive and grow in the way we want to grow mentally and physically, health psychology has a lot of information about what we know at this point, which, of course, it’s always a moving target that I love about this field.

It’s always changing and growing, but I think to empower people to really live whatever life it is that they are longing for and envisioning for themselves, it’s a field of hope. It’s a field of courage and it’s a field also of decolonization. I think looking at the body and mind and soul combination on a lot of different levels, which we can talk about some of those specifics which are very exciting to me, personally.

I wanted to mention how I got into the field. I thought that listeners would enjoy this because a lot of people who come to Antioch come in a really beautiful way, typically a path of a journey. It’s very interesting. I came from a family that did amazing things with health, and we were backpacking in the wilderness when I was pretty young. Both my parents are very, very vigorous in their own different cultural ways, but I came to really value that what it feels like to be in a really vigorous body.

The other thing about that that I like disclose is that I took so many classes in the field in my doctoral work, but I had no clue about the field. I didn’t know there was a field. Finally one of my advisors said, “Do you know you have enough health psychology credits that you could have a minor for your PhD in health psychology.” I’m like, “Cool, what’s health psychology?” I’ve been studying it but it was such a new field I didn’t really even know– nobody really identified it as a field. It was so long ago.

So, I kind of stumbled into it and then I ended up doing both clinical work and research in the field. Now, of course, I’m teaching, and it’s just a joy to have this program. It’s one of the four, five programs in the country that offer this look into how the body and brain intersect, so it’s pretty cool stuff. I wanted to mention all that.

[00:07:16] Jamila: I love that to use the terms hope and connected to your own journey, because I think sometimes we see our circumstances as limited. We might even know that we have the possibility of doing something more or changing our circumstances, like our lived circumstances or something with our body. There was a term that I saw when I was reading through your information, and it was called lifespan development. I wonder if you could talk some about that because I was thinking about possibly what the connection might be, but if we start with what the term is, that would be wonderful.

[00:08:00] Lynn: Well, the term lifespan development, the health psychology curriculum requires a bunch of different classes and it requires that people have a developmental class. The reason why is because I was just thinking about this last night, think about how much we change from being like a one-month-old to a 98-year-old or a 100-year-old. It’s such a different body and it’s a different mind as it develops neurologically. As it changes neurologically, we have to look at the person from all different points in that journey.

The journey when someone is very, very physically young and the way the environment affects them, physically and psychologically, is very different than at a much older age. The lifespan development is the concept that we develop and change over the course of our lives, and it sort of neutralizes that plane so that we’re not reifying youth and denigrating the other aspects of life. It just neutralizes that playing field and just basically says the equivalent of, I’m very simplistic. We change and grow. We change and grow.

I think looking into the details of how we change and grow and what helps us and what gets in our way. The other thing again, lifespan development does, concept of development does is really talking about the effects of things at younger ages. We’re finding more and more that certain kinds of health practices when you’re in your 20s, for example, can have a big, big impact later in life.

We used to think that we try to be healthy when we were hitting middle age, you know at 40 you’d be going, “Oh, I’d probably take care of some of this stuff and just maybe exercise more and eat better.” We’re finding that that’s great, that really helps, but actually if we can get healthy ways that work for us in our culture, that aren’t just landed on us, imposed on us, if we can find ways of being in our bodies that are really joyful and healthy, they have powerful impacts from childhood towards people who are my age, 65.

So just again, a disclosure, I always discuss this with my classes. My mother’s an example of that. She was running her own senior trail crew at age 86. [laughs] I know, she blew out a lot of Rangers and there were a lot of people in the Sierra Club that would say things like– She’d run all these trips. They would say things like, “When I grow up,” her name was Harriet- “When I grow up, I want to be Harriet.”

She’s very joyful, she was very physically strong, she blew out all the doctors they’d always go, “Oh, you’re such great shape for someone who’s in the early 70s, your muscles are so healthy.” I’d say, “She’s 88.” It’s just, I think there are a lot of concepts, like you were talking about limitation, there are a lot of concepts about limitations of the body. In many cultures, people who are older are actually pretty healthy. They’re running around doing physical things.

And so I just think at every level we want to feel empowered to do the best we can for ourselves on every level, and then every time we run into a seeming limitation, like you’re talking about Jamila, give ourselves permission to explode past it. It turns out you can build muscle mass very late in life. She started lifting weights when she was 84, I think. [laughs] I’d been lifting weights for years. I’m like, “Mom, you got to do this.” She started lifting weights with a personal trainer. I always like to use her as an example because I just feel like she blows out a lot of concepts of what old age is like.

[00:11:29] Jamila: Some of what you just said there reminds me of my studies. One of the things I learned was that your zip code and social environment has a direct influence on health outcomes.

[00:11:40] Lynn: Yes, you can see health outcomes based on your zip code. This is something that we go into in quite a bit of depth. I also want to talk about it globally. We tend to be focused on this country and Western countries. Globally, we know there are tremendous health equities in this country, and I don’t want to throw a lot of statistics at us because this field is very research-based, which is lovely. We have a lot of knowledge that comes from multiple people really working hard to try to figure this stuff out.

Bottom line is there are multiple groups who have the effects of oppression showing in their bodies. For example, we know that African Americans have the biomarkers of high blood pressure, chronic illnesses at younger age, and just basically what you see is different groups are hit by chronic illness. I want to just mention really quickly, chronic illness is greatly building in this country because people are not dying of traditional infectious diseases like typhoid anymore globally. People are dying now of cardiovascular disease, heart disease, stroke, things like that.

Globally, we are also dying of things like COVID, HIV, things that are infectious diseases globally. These are hitting just proportionately certain groups. We know through COVID, African Americans, Hispanics, Native Americans, especially, were dying at far greater rates, getting COVID and had serious problems with serious illness, hospitalizations and dying at far greater rates than people who are Caucasian. It’s based on zip code, but it’s also based on group.

It’s the same thing globally. Women who are assigned female at birth, globally have way less access to healthcare. They get worse healthcare, they get it later, they get different diagnoses. They don’t get stroke. They get sent into a gynecologist in this country. Amazing inequities in healthcare, and then we see those with greater risks of dying. For example, a lot of the emphasis has been quite rightly so on trying to keep women safe in childbirth. That’s great ,but what the conversation that’s happening now globally is like, “Okay, what about the rest of the lifespan?”

That’s one area where you see good attention in one area, but not enough attention for the rest of the lifespan, and also the patriarchal assumption that women are only valuable because they bear children. You see intersections of tremendous oppression and how it plays out globally. The other thing that’s really important to note is the effects of temperature warming, which I’m sure you’ve had a background on environmental justice, Jamila. I’m sure you could talk a lot more about that than I can, but we’re just starting to look at the health effects of heat.

The health effects of heat are greatly increased. The risk of death is greatly increased for people all around the globe who are poor. Globally, people are starting to address that climate change is going to impact people who are already disenfranchised, who are already suffering at far greater rates in all countries. This intersection is huge, it’s just huge. Of course, LGBTQIA people, the effects of oppression lead to worse health outcomes in a variety of different paths.

One of them is difficulty, in many places, of even talking to a provider, and then for people who are transgendered or in that process, trying to get care that is appropriate, both for the biological, the body, whatever gender was assigned at birth, sex assigned to birth, and the body of choice, the gender of choice. Again, some people don’t choose a real binary choice, but those are things that really limit people’s care. It’s a long answer to a short question.

[00:15:35] Jamila: I appreciate it. One of the other things that I think about or understand as a survivor of sexual assault and as a person in a Black female presenting body is that we don’t generally talk about bodies in the way that you are talking about them. I don’t generally like to talk about bodies because it feels disconnected where we dehumanize people when we just talk about body. I also know that trauma and our society have us disconnecting our human experience and the life that’s lived in the body.

Knowing what we know about health psychology and the lifespan development and zip codes and structural oppression, I wonder if we can talk some about healing practices for individuals and collective healing, because I think it’s so important that we both recognize the trauma that happens and the disconnection that happens, but also saying how can we work towards healing because it is a process and it also has to be collective.

[00:16:48] Lynn: It has to be collective. I think one of the wonderful things about the field of psychology now is that we’re not just looking at the pain and the damage that was done, we’re also looking at how do people thrive and grow beyond tremendous difficulty, or just survive or just move on and have their dreams realized. The field originally was very, very focused on all the things that happened, which is great. We need to do that, but we also need to help people to become who they want to be.

Healing practices are incredibly important. First I want to say something, which are these practices are ancient. Healing practices are ancient and global. Every culture, every society has had their healers and there’s very much arrogance currently about these practices. For example, thankfully, we are starting to-

[00:17:37] Jamila: Can I-

[00:17:38] Lynn: Yes, go ahead.

[00:17:38] Jamila: I’m just going to apologize for interrupting there, but I love that you brought up the fact that they’re ancient, because one of the things, and this goes back to when you talked about or you mentioned decolonization, is that there are folks who haven’t done their own internal decolonizing work and their own healing work who are showing up as healers, and you are actually doing harm because you haven’t done your own internal work, and you don’t connect to and realize that this is ancient work.

[00:18:15] Lynn: Yes, it’s ancient work. It was for that reason, in most societies it was considered holy. It was such a powerful work that occurs which nobody really understands. Every society has an explanation, but a lot of it has also been a mystery, but because you’re asked on so many levels to honor the other, that you can’t do it unless you carry that deeply within you, which again, is why most societies consider it holy work, because you have to be in that deep honoring awareness of the power, the tremendous pain and power, and beauty of life in order to be part of healing for another person and helping them find their way.

The thing that’s so interesting about that is things like they’re doing all these cool scans with all these different kinds of electromagnetic whatevers. They’re finding like, for example, the acupuncture meridian is exactly, exactly where people said they were. The thing you were talking about, the power of being in the body and the issue with the disconnect, and so we’re finding the power of our bodies are tremendous for healing.

For example, the concept of forest bathing, the concept that the trees actually emit oils that our bodies respond to. These bodies, I’m sorry I keep talking about bodies, but this is how I think of it, they were made to walk 20 miles a day, they were made to lift water, they were made to pull on things, chop things. This is how these forms have lived for millions of years.

Now we put them inside dark cubicles with no air and we wonder why that is such a problem. That’s happening with children, children who are allowed to run around the playgrounds and have that unstructured play, there’s amazing things about the development, how the development changes when they’re allowed to do that versus when they’re in really great sports, not that sports aren’t wonderful, but it’s different when adults are structuring.

On every level, we need to reconnect with these bodies, and so forest bathing is an example. It actually greatly changes the body’s hormones to be outside, it changes the stress hormones, it changes blood pressure. It has all these powerful effects and even they’ve done all the million different studies where they have people out in a park. They did one where they put people out in a park 15, 20 minutes intervention. Some people they made them think about awe, they made them notice what was around them. Other people said, “Just exercise.”

It’s how we are in the world, how we are in the environment that makes a huge difference in our bodies. The other thing I wanted to mention is that we now can look at cellular effects of oppression, and the bottom line is there are different very specific markers of aging. One of them is when telomeres shorten, and everyone’s telomeres shorten. It’s just part of living and dying and growing older. They shorten at way faster rates for those who have specific experiences with oppression and racism, for example, in multiple areas of their life.

We’re starting to be able to know that this is addictive. Each area of the life domain for this one study showed a year of increase in the cellular aging. Now you talk about healing practices. Meditation is extremely powerful ancient technique, and it’s highly effective at doing things like lowering blood pressure, helping stress hormones get digested, so to speak, to move out of the body.

For example, they looked at the effects of cellular aging with different kinds of meditation, and they found that lovingkindness meditation stopped cellular aging for a group of people for 12 weeks. Another group research study found that a meditation retreat reversed that telomere shortening. They actually started to lengthen. The body is so malleable. Our brains are malleable. Our bodies are malleable. We have to know that and have the hope and the courage and the empowerment to use it, to do that wisely and in a way that claims us.

One of the most cool decolonizing I’ve seen is some decolonizing around diet saying, “Don’t tell me my food is greasy and wrong and that I should be eating white bread, the equivalent of White people’s food.” I say that as a woman of color, White people’s food. There’s these groups that are going, “No, no, our diets are great. Let me tell you why.” Really looking at the nutrition of the diets is saying, “Do not go in and tell people their food is bad.”

The same thing with fitness. There’s a bunch of people who are decolonizing the world of fitness, which is also one where it’s ageist, it’s racist, it’s very sexist, really decolonizing and just changing some gyms to be someplace where they’re deeply inclusive, that are run by whole groups of people that are not the typical “gym rat”, so to speak. Really looking at some of those ways to promote healthy healing and movement, and looking at how do people already move, what do they already do? Not forcing people to do things differently.

There are people who move quite a bit, running around after a toddler. Well, guess what? You don’t need to go to the gym, you just ran after that kid, and granted, it’s not aerobic exercise or maybe you want to play and get your aerobic exercise somewhere because it has a huge impact on healing. To really start looking at people’s lives in a way that they’re deeply honoring of what they face looking at those things and talking more frankly.

You talk about public spaces, talking about how are these public spaces accessible for everyone. If it’s healthy to go out and be outside, how can we make that so everyone can do it? How can we make it so people who aren’t able-bodied can go and be out in these spaces and out in the wilderness, for example?

[00:23:49] Jamila: I love that because you were able to connect the way that oppression affects the body over time, as well as the ways that we can look at how we culturally can heal individually and collectively. We have the shortening of the telomeres, but we also have the ability to forest bathe or to meditate, to help work on, I don’t know if it’s reversing or doing some of the healing. What I want to do now is to move us-

[00:24:25] Lynn: Can I just say one more thing? I also want to say that every group has its own ways of holding each other in community and health and lovingness. To culturally, and I say culturally in a more broad sense, look into how does your community do that? One of my friends was talking about the great caring and holding and healing of the Black church. They said, “That’s where I get my healing, is in my community,” and that’s just one example.

Every group has its own ways of being and ways of understanding the world, and ways of holding each other from the difficulties of life and the traumas of life. I just wanted to make sure we mentioned that because those are some solutions, but lovingkindness meditation may not be culturally appropriate for someone, maybe something else that their group does.

[00:25:13] Jamila: I love it because it actually connects the other question that I wanted to ask you about individual and collective healing that is connected to your own work. The way that you were part of the Women Care Shelter that I mentioned in the intro, one, for women who have experienced domestic violence. How did you become part of this collective, and what was the process in forming the domestic violence shelter?

[00:25:40] Lynn: Well, it’s a wonderful question, Jamila, because it gets at the root of so much of this. We were a group of women, we had actually been part of a collective action around nuclear weaponry. We felt very strongly about creating social change in different ways. We were happy to put our little bodies on the lines, which I love. I love doing that. We really did some work as a group, getting to know each other and thinking, “Well, now that we’ve done these nuclear weapons actions,” this is all in the late ’70s, “what really needs [unintelligible 00:26:13]?” We were done.

We said to all, it was the police, all these people who were like, “Well, it takes a while and you got to write grants through this stuff.” We said, “We’re opening in three months, watch our smoke. We want your support and we welcome your support and you watch us. We’re doing it, baby.” We got a hold of basically it was a collective house. We took one and we rented it and we opened that shelter.

It was amazing to do it in a way that was empowering to the women in the sense that we very much honored their experience, we heard their experience. We didn’t do what some of the shelters were doing, which is naughty, naughty, you need to leave now and I’m going to tell you all about how. We really honored where they were coming from, what the limitations were of their lives, and invited them to be part of the discussions and what needed to happen, and how they thought things should run. It was pretty exciting.

I think that’s one of the key things I wanted to say, that we invented accidentally ways of healing through respect for others and honoring of others. There’s now a bunch of different ways that psychology does that. There are just different versions of that now running that are very healing for people. They’re called strength-based approaches. I’ll never forget when I was talking with a woman, and I can’t remember where it was, one of the community health centers, and she told me about how she took herself off crack.

As she was going on, she’s going on to the next thing. She’s like, “I took myself off crack, and then I did this.” I said, “Yes, stop, stop, stop.” I said, “How the hell did you do that alone?” Because that was back then, it was horrible. Nobody got themselves off at that point with the kind of drugs she was doing. I said, “Stop, well, how did you do this?” She looked at me she said, “My mother begged me on her deathbed to stop and I stopped.”

I’m like, “Wait a minute. We have to talk about the strength here. We have to talk about how you got yourself from living in burned-out buildings. We have to talk about how you changed your life. How did you do all this?” We had started having the celebration of her. I’m like, “Wait a minute. How did you do that?” She looks at me she goes, “Well, when nanny–” I said, “No, I know if it was me who lived what you’d lived, I’d be dead. I’d be dead right now.” I said, “I’m not saying that in a cutey way, I’m saying let’s talk about the strength.”

You’re talking about your goals now, where you want to go, how are you going to use that strength, how are we going to respect your road, and how you came here for you to get to the next. Nobody had ever, ever in her life talked with her about the strength she had. Everybody was all like, “Oh, it was stupid. How’d you do that stupid thing?” The strength-based approaches are so beautiful because they really do and they make somebody sit down and go, “Well, okay, now, that’s a strength there. Let’s just talk about that strength. What do you think your strengths are?”

Sometimes people come up with strengths that I wouldn’t have identified and we get into them and I’m like, “Wow.” Sometimes they’re, “not pretty ones”, they’re not societally acceptable ones, but man, they did whatever they needed to in an amazing way, and it’s a strength they have.

[00:29:57] Jamila: What I appreciate about that story and then also the work that you’ve done with the collective, is that I really believe that it’s a testament to what it means to see each other and to move forward with a common purpose and really be able to say, “I got value as a whole person,” which also is the throughline I think of health psychology honoring people where they are and looking at the stages that they’re at, and really connecting to how they’re moving through the world and their lived experiences.

I know that part of what you do, one of your passions is helping your students identify the way that they can take action. With this work, what are some sorts of the careers or activist projects that can come out of studying health psychology?

[00:30:52] Lynn: I think one of the biggest things is to not take a rescuer approach, to really look at the strengths that are already in a community. It’s very interesting when you see a community define for themselves what they need. Typically, it’s not what somebody coming from the outside wants to give them. I think one of the most important things we can have, the most important skills in life, is humility, humbleness. Really getting that one of our biggest strengths–

There’s a saying that, again, this is East Indian philosophy, “The waters of mercy gather in the valleys of humbleness.” It can’t gather on the mountaintops of pride. When people want to help others, often, Jamila, you were talking about how people can do damage when they come from their own hurt, that they weren’t protected or cared for, which of course, is so true. We want to have deep compassion for each of our hurts and hold each other lovingly.

When we come to heal, we can’t come with that like a sword, insisting that everything happened the way we would have liked it to happen for our healing. That’s when you’re seeing people are destructive when they haven’t healed more fully. On a similar way, for someone to come into a community and take charge and go, “I’m just sure this is what you need.” That is deeply destructive.

There are community leaders in every community and there are people who have the ability to lead who may not have been identified in the community. I think just wisely start those dialogues. There’s some wonderful work that’s been done. There’s different things that are done that are examples of that. The Heifer Project was one example. This cattle rancher in World War II saw that people were starving after the war when he left Europe, and he started shipping cows back.

He would give a cow to someone, to a family, and ask the community to share in the cow and all sort of stuff. It evolved, so it started to become that cows weren’t so great, buffalo were better, and chickens. The whole organization developed very organically to help people have something, but it demanded that it also bring the community up, that is not one family suddenly gets rich with their chickens or their whatever. They have to hand over some things to the community, ways to build the community.

It was based on people going, “That’s great, cows die here. No cows, please.” Another one is micro-loans to women that are run by FINCA. It’s micro-loans for women to start their own business. It was the idea that women tended to bond with other women and then they have a whole thing about how they help each other, and they train other women, how to have their own businesses.

If some woman who’s poor, who’s considered nobody in her community because she’s not a man, and FINCA went in and didn’t empower the men, empowered the women. It’s those kinds of things where you want to be very thoughtful about how you come in. Those are the things that we talk about with Antioch students. Antioch students are so beautiful. It’s just an incredible privilege to be with them in a journey of their learning and on our learning with them and from them.

We really challenge students to think about these questions and to think very deeply about themselves and what are applications and healing that can occur in the world that aren’t just a frustrated band-aid stick-on. I don’t know if that answers your question.

[00:34:22] Jamila: It does. I just want to say I appreciate your perspective and the way that you work to honor both the body and the human connected to the body, and the experience that people have moving through the world so that there is a loving of who that person is, the lived experience and perspective that they have and moving towards healing is really a beautiful thing and I appreciate it. Thank you for your time and sharing your knowledge and experience. It was a pleasure speaking with you.

[00:35:01] Lynn: It was a pleasure speaking with you, Jamila. Thank you so much for your perspective. It’s really beautiful for you to talk about your background and where you’ve come from and where you’re going. Your questions are very powerful. Thank you so much for this conversation.

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[00:35:24] Jamila: To learn more about the psychology programs that Lynn teaches in Seattle, visit Antioch’s website, antioch.edu. We’ll link directly to more information in our show notes. We post these show notes on our website, theseedfield.org, where you’ll also find full episode transcripts, prior episodes, and more. The Seed Field Podcast is produced by Antioch University.

Our editor is Lauren Instenes. A special thanks to Sierra-Nicole E. Debinion, Karen Hamilton, and Melinda Garland. Thank you for spending your time with us today. That’s it for this episode. We hope to see you next time and don’t forget to plant a seed, sow a cause, and win a victory for humanity. From Antioch University, this has been The Seed Field Podcast.

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