Fiona O’Farrell hopes for a world in which sex therapy isn’t a specialization within psychotherapy but is embraced as central to the field. Through her work as a sex therapist and as faculty at Antioch Seattle, she is actively working towards this future when every therapist will be comfortable providing guidance on how sexual practices and gender identities impact our lives. In this episode, Fiona tells us of the healing she has seen happen when therapists give patients the permission to be their full sexual selves, and she discusses how sex therapy is uniquely positioned to aid both individuals and the overall health of relationships, regardless of their kind.
Learn more about Fiona O’Farrell’s work here.
This episode was recorded January 10, 2022 via Riverside.fm and released February 16, 2022.
The Seed Field Podcast is produced by Antioch University.
The Seed Field Podcast’s host is Jasper Nighthawk, and its editor is Lauren Instenes. Special thanks for this episode goes to Karen Hamilton and Melinda Garland for their contributions.
Fiona (she/they) is the Director of the Sexuality Certificate Programs and Teaching Faculty in the CFT Program at Antioch University Seattle. They joined the CFT faculty in 2017. They are an AASECT Certified Sexuality Therapist, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, AAMFT-Approved Supervisor and sexuality educator. Their professional focus includes the integration of sexual health with systemic therapies, shame reduction through narrative practice, and dismantling binary thinking. Their clinical work includes intimacy enhancement in relationships, identity exploration and queer-affirmative care. Prior to starting in private practice, Fiona worked in community and school-based mental health programs in the Seattle area. They are a member of the American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy and the American Association for Sex Educators, Counselors and Therapists.
[00:00:03] Jasper Nighthawk: Welcome to the Seed Field Podcast, the show where Antiochians share their knowledge, tell their stories, and come together to win victories for humanity.
[00:00:20] Jasper: I’m your host, Jasper Nighthawk, and today, we’re happy to bring you the third and final episode in our series on human sexuality. Over the last month, we’ve heard from leading scholars at Antioch about the importance of supporting young people as they discover and explore questions of identity and sexuality. In our second episode, we talked about sex ed and how sex-positive multicultural education can help young people avoid or work through fear and shame around their sexuality, and ultimately, how this can help them be safer in their lives.
Today, I’m really excited for us to pivot and talk not about developing sexuality or how to support young people, but about sexuality among adults. We’re specifically going to focus on how sex therapy can help us have healthier relationships and be more comfortable with our sexuality. I’m especially excited that we’re going to talk a little bit about ethical polyamory and shame reduction through narrative. To have this conversation, I’m delighted to be joined by Fiona O’Farrell. Fiona designed and is the director of Antioch Sexuality Certificate programs. They teach in the couple and family therapy program at Antioch, Seattle.
Beyond being a licensed marriage and family therapist, Fiona is also a certified sexuality therapist. Welcome to the Seed Field Podcast, Fiona.
[00:01:43] Fiona O’Farrell: Hi, Jasper, thanks so much for having me today.
[00:01:46] Jasper: I’m super excited to pick your brain about all topics sex and sex therapy. I thought to start off, it would be great, as is our way to disclose to our listeners what positions were coming from. I think that’s particularly important when we’re talking about power and what is sex about if not power at least in some part. For myself, I’d want people to know that I’m a white cis-gendered millennial man. I don’t live with a disability. I’m middle class, have a white-collar job, and I hold a postgraduate degree. While I’m not 100% straight, I am currently in a monogamous relationship with my partner who identifies as a woman. Fiona, could you tell us a little bit about what position you come from in this conversation?
[00:02:33] Fiona: Absolutely, and I love that we’re starting out this way so thanks for leading that, Jasper. I identify as White and I’m currently, how I explain my gender identity is that I’m exploring. I still haven’t really landed on a term or a way of identifying myself that feels like a good fit for me. I am fem presenting and I lean fem in my gender identity. I’m also pass as hetero as I am partnered with a cis man, but I identify as pansexual. I also do not live with a disability and when I identify as neurotypical, I currently hold a graduate degree and am in a PhD program, and have stable income and housing. Work full time at Antioch University and I have a small part-time private practice in sex therapy as well.
I do not have children, but I do have two Corgi dogs, which are my furry children that are a big part of my identity as well. I think it’s important since we’re talking about sex that I was raised Catholic, and the joke I like to offer to folks is if you want your kid to be a sex therapist, then go ahead and raise them with Catholic values, because that’s where all that guilt and shame stuff, my interest in working with that comes from. Those are probably the key pieces and definitely let me know if there’s anything I’m forgetting that you’d like me to include.
[00:03:52] Jasper: No, that’s great, and I think you were more thorough than me. I feel like mentioning that your house is super relevant in our society today. I want to know more about you though than just these kinds of like census form type descriptors. I think the question that I want to ask is, you’ve devoted your professional life to being a therapist, and really a sex therapist, and combining those two things. I know that many of our listeners are not themselves sex therapists, and I think a lot of us haven’t ever actually had the services of a sex therapist in our lives. I’m curious, what was the moment when you realized that you wanted to be a sex therapist?
[00:04:31] Fiona: That’s a great question. For anybody practicing as a sex therapist, they have to be trained in psychotherapy or counseling, whatever word we might use. Actually, my awakening to sex therapy was in my graduate program training to be a couple and family therapist. Really, I took a human sexuality course and I was lucky to have a really wonderful mentor and instructor of that course, and it opened my eyes to the power of education and information and what lack of information, how it impacts our health and wellness overall.
After I took that class, I just thought everybody needs to know this information and how can I be a part of that process? That was the beginning of it. I dedicated my postgraduate training to becoming a certified sex therapist, and just really wanted to increase access to knowledge and sexuality-based mental health for my community and for other folks that I felt like I had been missing something, and it had been given to me through that course. I was hooked basically, it was a big wake-up call.
[00:05:53] Jasper: That’s a wonderful instinct to have to think, “Wow, this is wonderful information that I’ve been given, how can I pay that forward and actually bring it to other people?” I want us to back up just a little bit and talk about what sex therapy is. My understanding, I feel like it’s useful for me to just tell you what I think and you can correct me. My understanding is, at its most basic, sex therapy is a medical field that’s interest in the well-being of patients that works to improve client’s sexual well-being and to treat sexual dysfunction.
That this function can include high profile things like erectile dysfunction, which there’s drugs for, but it also can include all sorts of other issues, and issues relating to gender, and relating to relationships. Do I have that basically right? Maybe you could tell me some of the most common applications of it.
[00:06:49] Fiona: Interestingly, what I would say is depending on who you speak to, the answer to that might vary a little bit, because we can have medical doctors who are trained in sex therapy and we can have master’s level psychotherapy clinicians trained in sex therapy, we have clergy folks trained in sex therapy. I would say that maybe somebody who goes into the medical field will err more on that intersection of physiology and medicine and dysfunction. How I like to describe it to folks is, first of all, it’s important for us to clarify that sex therapy is talk therapy so we don’t do any hands-on work with our clients. There are some folks who identify as sexuality therapists or will use terms like that who do do hands-on work and that’s not the field to that we’re in.
Really what it means is that the fundamental belief of folks who practice sex therapy is that sexuality is an integral part of being a human and of life, and it’s actually a lens we adopt to look at any issue that a client might be bringing in. An example that I give is I might be working with a client who their main concern is depression, but part of the work that I do with them is I might ask more questions and integrate more around their sexuality and sexual well-being into how does that show up in your depression? How does accessing your sexuality actually maybe alleviate some of your depressive symptoms? It’s this filter at which we look at almost everything that a person experiences and that’s the main thing I would think about with a sex therapist.
The drawback of that is then we’re a much broader field than I think most people understand, because we generally like to think of a particular issue that somebody might have a concern with, and that’s the type of therapist that you see, but really, it’s also the way that we look at how a person exists and functions in the world. It’s pretty broad in that sense.
[00:08:59] Jasper: Okay, so it’s not constrained just to like, “Oh, sorry, you’re telling me something that didn’t happen in the bedroom. I can’t talk about that.” It’s much more how our experience of sexuality can influence all of our life.
[00:09:10] Fiona: Exactly. Then I would say, in general, there are some cornerstone things that sex therapists have more training in than your average therapist, which would be things like sexual concerns around physiology and arousal, orientation and identity around gender, sexual orientation, relationship constellations. Then I would say that we’re much more likely to be affirmative of what folks might call erotically marginalized practices like kink or BDSM.
[00:09:44] Jasper: Everything you’re describing sounds to me like things that I would hope any therapist would have an openness to non-normative, if we’re going to keep using that term, orientations or relational practices, or erotic orientations. When someone comes in for sex therapy, what is the process there, or where do you start?
[00:10:05] Fiona: That’s an interesting question. What I like to be clear with folks, and I’ll really speak from the psychotherapy end of things, is that you can’t be a sex therapist without being a psychotherapist first. Usually, a lot of the ways we would answer that question depends on how that particular person does therapy. I can only really speak to my experience, but typically, what we’ll do is we’ll have folks come in either individually or in their relationship constellations, that could be couples or dyads or triads or maybe even folks in multiple relationships. We get an understanding of what it is that they’re hoping to get some help and support in.
Then one thing that I wouldn’t say is universally practiced, but we do use something called the PLISSIT model, which is an acronym for Permission, Limited Information, Specific Suggestions, and then Intensive Therapy. What that is, as we know that because of the stigma that exists around talking about sex, or what folks is confusing experiences can be around sex, that one of the most helpful things we can do for folks in alleviating their concerns is giving them permission to be full sexual beings and that whatever it is, as long as it’s consensual, is acceptable and okay. We find that about 50% of folks who come in with sexual concerns, once they’ve experienced that permission level, actually will report an alleviation of their concerns and symptoms.
We always say we approach therapy from an inverted stance is that we only get down to the deep underlying what could be going on after we’ve worked with them around permission, alleviating shame, giving them some information about what is. I know we’re not being video recorded right now, but you and I are both using air quotes so much here but just really dismantling those beliefs we all hold around what is normal and what is not normal in our sexual selves.
We find that if we can work on those things, whether it’s the relationships you’ve decided to be in and the level of acceptance folks have around that or whatever you do in your solo practices, or maybe it’s something you’re interested in that you haven’t even told another human being before. Usually, if we can give space for people to just accept that that’s okay and that’s absolutely normal, then we usually see that a lot of the initial concerns have been resolved.
[00:12:57] Jasper: It feels to me that’s important because our society has so little room for that.
[00:13:02] Fiona: I think what a lot of people are really worried about is in, one, it’s going to feel like a confessional, it isn’t. Your sex therapist is trained well to ask appropriate questions and be really curious and non-judgmental, but also, a lot of it is just unpacking a lot of the things we have held throughout our lives that has signaled to us that something isn’t okay. It’s working with typically a clinician, an individual clinician, who just give so much allowance for those to come forward and for them to be explored.
For some folks, this is two, three sessions and for some people, it’s 24 sessions, and it could take a couple of months, or it could take two years. It really is just allowing people to just break free of a lot of the discourse they’ve been taught or the messaging that they’ve been given, and really determine that for themselves as opposed to what’s been put on them throughout time.
[00:14:09] Jasper: You brought up this word shame, and I know that part of your practice as a therapist is what you call “shame reduction through narrative practice.” Can you tell us first what is the importance of reducing shame, and how does that impact us?
[00:14:24] Fiona: First, I think it’s important that we distinguish what shame is. I always reference Brené Brown. [chuckles] Brené has this beautiful definition of shame, which is that a lot of people conflate shame and guilt, and guilt is something that’s useful and productive and informs us of something we want to correct for staying connected to folks in the future. Where shame is a complete undermining of our characteristics and it is built in this belief that we are not worthy of love and connection.
Where guilt is really useful and helpful, shame is typically something that actually pulls us away from people, degrades our sense of being. Unfortunately, in the society that we live in, we’ve just received so many mixed messages around sexuality. There’s a big impact, and one of the things that’s been not new to the field but definitely more, I would say research and investigation, is also looking at the impact of colonization and White supremacy on these messaging around sexuality. It really can be the thing that locks us in believing that we’re not worthy of love, connection, and what we’re drawn to sexually because often we have these really rigid rules about what is okay, what is not okay, what is considered, again, “normative”, those have this ability to just invite our deepest sense of unworthiness.
[00:16:06] Jasper: I think in our society if you don’t understand the connection between shame and sex, you maybe aren’t existing in the same culture that I grew up in. It seems all over the place. The way that you explain that, your idea of shame versus guilt, that seems like a super useful distinction. You talk about shame reduction through narrative practice, how does narrative come into this? What do you mean by narrative practice?
[00:16:30] Fiona: Narrative practice is rooted in theoretical orientation of narrative therapy that came around in the– I hope I referenced this correctly, but the late ’80s. It is built under the understanding that we construct our social understanding of the world and because we construct most things, and this is why it works so well with sex therapy, gender is a construct, race is a construct, what’s defined as beautiful is a construct in our society, what’s defined as acceptable sexually is a construct in our society.
What narrative practice does is it looks at how what we call the dominant narrative has been constructed by our society, so these aren’t actually what necessarily individual people’s experiences are or what they endorse but collectively we’ve all made some agreements that this is the case. Things like gender is on a binary, that most people fall into male, female. Narrative practice would say that that is a dominant narrative that exists in the world, but it usually doesn’t serve most individual people and so–
[00:17:41] Jasper: If you’re experiencing some gender dysphoria, you could dismantle the shame you might be feeling around that by looking out and saying, “Okay, this idea that you have to be a man or a woman is something that society has just decided on that doesn’t have a real basis in fact”
[00:17:58] Fiona: Yes, exactly. You and your therapist would work together at deconstructing what those dominant narratives, as we said, and then really look at whether or not they serve you, and then you co-construct a new narrative that is more in line with your individual experiences and alignment, which, this all in theory. What that really does a great job of is disconnecting the shame from the human being, because the shame is then more rooted in the construction of that thought or that message, as opposed to the shame being a thing that that person embodies in their personhood.
[00:18:41] Jasper: That’s beautifully put. I think that that idea of using narrative structure to deconstruct our shame and to really interrogate whether that’s something we should hold is a good one. Not even is just a good one but is useful outside of the realm of sex therapy, is useful throughout everything. I wanted to stick with one of the things that you said, though, you said that there’s been a lot of work in the field of decolonizing and look at the ways that a White supremacist or a patriarchal society has built up this field and has built up our ideas around what sex itself should be and should look like.
I totally see our society has this emphasis really on the experiences of straight White men as sexual beings, as like the sexual archetype we could maybe say. I was wondering if you could tell me more about that decolonizing work that you’ve been doing, and what issues people who don’t fit that mold might experience?
[00:19:38] Fiona: Of course, and I want to put the big disclaimer out there that I am absolutely in learner mode of this. I don’t even know if I’m really doing the work. I’m still in the position of learning and taking in, particularly that there are sexuality educators and professionals in our field that are doing phenomenal work looking at the influence of colonization on our society’s agreements around sexuality and normative culture and those things. This is knowledge that a lot of colleagues and folks that I work with have had for a long time or been thinking about but because of their positionality or their identifiers that they haven’t always been given a platform to vocalize these different things. I’m thinking about the ways that I am still learning about the diversity that exists in our historical stories and the legacies through our intergenerational lenses but because White supremacist culture has been the most dominant, there is this process of getting back to and uncovering other ways of understanding sexuality, other ways of looking at the world.
A big indicator of that, of course, like one of the most prominent examples is gender that many other cultures have not subscribed to a male-female gender binary, and those have been in existence for millennia and in past civilizations. When colonization took over and dismantled a lot of the ways of transferring information in other cultures, then that’s where we get left with this gender binary. So that’s one example of looking at it. We know many indigenous cultures in the Americas have the Two-Spirit or something that is neither male or female, something in between or encompasses both gender energies.
We actually see that replicated many different places around the world so it’s interesting. I talk to a lot of folks who they feel like learning about expansive gender identities is a new thing. All of a sudden there’s been more focus but really what it is, is this has been in existence forever. For the first time, we have been giving space for those narratives to come forward and for those to be examined and looked at.
[00:22:16] Jasper: Thank you, that’s a great reminder that what can seem as new to someone who is just learning about something is not necessarily brand new in the history of the world, and for other people, it might be yesterday’s news.
[00:22:30] Fiona: Precisely.
[00:22:32] Jasper: I want to give the briefest of shout outs although it doesn’t need to be brief, but to asexuality as an experience that also I mean I think we naturally are talking a lot about different sexual expressions, but that also is something that I think is newly visible in our society. It’s people who aren’t interested in engaging in sex with other people.
[00:22:54] Fiona: That’s actually always a conundrum when we’re training and working with new sex therapists is we like to just simplify lots of things. It’s a way that we learn things, it’s a cognitive mechanism that we have. Often for folks, what they think is asexual must mean complete absence of sexuality at all. It’s really about allowing every single person to have their definition of sexuality which may mean not interested in doing any kind of physical sexual behavior, may not be involved with other people, that type of thing.
Continuously, one of the things I love about this work is really understanding that the only thing we can count on in sexuality is variation, that’s the only “normative” thing that I know exists in sexuality. When we allow people to define that for themselves, it is just like radical things happen. We all get to live with more pleasure and more joy and less shame in our life.
[00:24:05] Jasper: I think that’s a perfect segue way before we get to the end. I want to leave a chunk of time for us to talk about another of your interests within sex therapy which is ethical polyamory and specifically, counseling people in non-monogamous relationships. I know that you teach this when you’re training other sex therapists and other therapists. I want to talk to you about this. In part, I see this as becoming more common. It’s definitely still not super common but it’s more common throughout our society.
At the same time, I think a lot of people haven’t heard about it or don’t know that much about it. I guess I’d again give my pocket definition which is polyamory is this model where you have multiple sexual partners and everybody has informed consent. Everybody knows to a negotiated-on degree but generally knows what other people are doing. That includes a lot of openness and communication. That also means that there’s these opportunities for miscommunication and emotional difficulty.
[00:25:09] Fiona: Just like being in a relationship with anybody, right?
[00:25:13] Jasper: Absolutely. I guess my question is what would you add to that definition and what challenges do you see polyamorous people bringing to sex therapy?
[00:25:23] Fiona: Jasper, if it’s okay, I think what’s really important and we come across this so often in our certificate program is the power of language and labels and how much things are changing. I think I can say pretty solidly there’s still not a completely acceptable term for what you and I are trying to talk about here. For some folks, polyamory is how they like to identify themselves but for other people, that’s not what they practice, and so they err towards ethical or consensual non-monogamy. Then for some people, the term ethical or consensual non-monogamy is only created in attempt to help people who don’t practice it accept it.
I’ll even hear from some folks like they don’t like being a non-anything and so they like to say I have multiple relationships or something like that. I feel like often with again nonconforming practices that are again seen as outside of our normative culture, there’s also a lot of conflict around how do we communicate this with other people so that they understand what it is that we do and don’t do. Even just what folks call themselves is just like the variety and the range is unbelievable. I might be referencing multiple relationships just to keep it as broad as possible.
[00:26:50] Jasper: Okay, that’s useful to know that there’s this linguistic conversation going on and probably irresolvable at least in the near term.
[00:26:59] Fiona: One thing I will say is some folks who are in multiple relationships, it’s not necessarily even sexual. Some of their other partners they have more of an emotional or an intellectual affinity with. It can be all different reasons that folks partner up with multiple partners in terms of common “problems” that come in, the first thing that I’ll say is being in relationships is hard whether you’re in a relationship with one other person, three other people, whether that’s friendships, workplace environments, that type of thing.
The most common thing I encounter with folks in these types of relationships are actually really not that different from the kinds of concerns that I have couples in traditional monogamous dyads come in with. It’s often around agreements and communication, trying to feel more connected, or trying to establish boundaries with each other. I think one of the things that sex therapists are often referenced for is people who have generally been in monogamous relationships who are looking to open up, that’s usually a time we’ll see an influx of folks accessing sex therapy.
We can do things like support folks in understanding how to make agreements, understanding how to engage in adding additional partners in. One of the hardest things is and I hope it’s okay I’ll make this parallel. I also will have people come to me and they’ll say we’re preparing to have children or we’re pregnant and we just want to do everything we can so it goes as smoothly as possible. Similarly, with having a baby, there are certain things you control and there are certain things that are going to be totally out of your control. Folks who are coming to get help and support in opening up their relationships often want to do it all right so that they don’t make any mistakes or nobody gets hurt. Unfortunately, being in relationships is messy and complicated whether that’s 1 or 5 or 20 and really what we help folks do is try and be as transparent as possible.
Try and have really great ways of not only communicating around positive things but how do you communicate when you have a conflict or when you don’t see eye to eye on an agreement. Or maybe an agreement has been violated and how do you recover from that? No matter who I’m working with or no matter what their relationship constellation is, that’s what we do, that’s one of the things we do. Sex therapists just are trained to know that that can happen with all sorts of different relationships and not just monogamous ones. I would say that’s where we do the extra training.
[00:29:40] Jasper: Okay, that makes a lot of sense. I like that you brought up this parallel to expecting a child and maybe opening a relationship or moving from a monogamous to a multiple relationships space. One of the things that it made me think about is my partner often says that she thinks like the best thing about polyamorous or multiple relationships approach is that it can create these bigger family structures that can really have some advantages when there are kids in the picture, because children really thrive when there are a lot of adults that you can count on.
At the same time, this seems like a total minefield in our society. People are used to kids having a mom and a dad. Maybe they’ve just opened up to a mom and a mom. Do you see in your practice polyamorous couples or multiple relationships folks raising children in bigger family structures and is that a minefield?
[00:30:35] Fiona: Yes, I do see folks who are raising children in open relationship structures. It’s a trick question, Jasper, because having kids is just hard. There’s always negotiation and challenges in being a parent. What I would say is more common is actually the potential stigma and barriers that folks in relationship structures where they’ve got maybe more than two parents. The things that they come across, so who’s allowed to pick these kids up from school? Who’s allowed to take them to the emergency room? The inherent bias towards two-person couples, that is a struggle. That we know very well because single parents identify that being the challenge for them. Divorced or blended families identify that as being challenging for them. A lot of the times where I’m working with folks or working with students around acclimating towards the variety of ways that folks can be in a relationship, I usually say look at– We already have structures in our society that we’ve decided is okay. We’re always evolving because if we were to go back into the ’60s and ’70s, divorce or separated families would have more stigma and taboo, unmarried folks with children would have more taboo.
The good news is I think that we’ve got a lot on the potential horizon around having more acceptance and inclusion of a variety of ways families are delineated and identified. It’s interesting to see that a lot of the work often comes with supporting folks in navigating those things. Which does put a lot of increased stress on families on parents wanting to make the right decisions about protecting their children while still living authentically for themselves. Often that is a part of the work that we do.
[00:32:33] Jasper: Yes. I’m glad you brought up just looking towards the horizon and the future and what is coming forward, because that’s a natural place to start wrapping things up. You obviously don’t work just as a sex therapist, but especially here at Antioch, you’re an educator of future therapists.
I wanted to ask you – those are the future where the field is moving. I wanted to ask, this is a more general question. What do you see your students being most excited about? What do you think they most need to learn about as they engage in their studies and prepare to be therapists of the future?
[00:33:14] Fiona: What a great question. I wish we could survey them, but I would definitely say that isomorphically when we have students who join our program, they’re also given permission to be full sexual beings. They’re then also given this gift of being able to work with folks where they are offering that permission to other people. What I would say is, I find our students are excited about is that this is a legitimate field to be in, that this is work that’s really needed. The demand is incredibly high. Our communities are really desperate for folks who are trained more in sex therapy, which also means folks who are more gender-inclusive, more inclusive of working with multiple relationships, more open to working with diversity and sexual expressions. We really are talking about marginalized communities here.
I could rattle off a bunch of statistics about how trans folks are treated, particularly trans women of color. We need folks out there in the field offering services. I think that this is track that they can integrate into their training into their program. It’s just so cool.
[00:34:33] Jasper: I love that. I think that’s a totally wonderful goal for therapy as a wider field and also sex therapy as a field moving forward. I also just appreciate you coming on our show, because I think that this doesn’t just happen in therapists’ offices. It also is a conversation that it would be really healthy for us to have more often and more widely as a society as a whole.
[00:34:58] Fiona: Absolutely, that’s what our program is really based in is advocacy and getting normalizing and getting more and more of the conversation out there. My dream actually is it wouldn’t be a specialty anymore, is that it would be just integrated into how we think about people’s wellbeing in their overall sense of self.
[00:35:24] Jasper: I think you’re on your way and thank you for coming on the Seed Field and sharing that vision and all of this knowledge with me and with our listeners.
[00:35:33] Fiona: Of course, thank you so much, Jasper.
[00:35:43] Jasper: More information about the sexuality certificate programs that Fiona both designed and currently directs is available on Antioch’s website. We’re putting a link to that in our show notes. We also have a link there to the master’s program Fiona teaches in, Antioch Seattle’s Master of Arts in Couple and Family Therapy. We post these show notes on our website, theseedfield.org, where you’ll also find full episode transcripts, prior episodes, and more. The Seed Field Podcast is produced by Antioch University. Our editor is Lauren Instenes. A special thanks to Karen Hamilton and Melinda Garland.
Thank you for spending your time with us today. That’s it for this episode. We hope to see you next time and don’t forget to plant a seed, sow a cause, and win a victory for humanity. From Antioch University, this has been the Seed Field Podcast.
[00:36:59] [END OF AUDIO]